making the necessary strategic decisions based on

a report it received just a few weeks ago. It is

important that those who are currently negotiating

changes in the airline continue to address the

necessity for change and flexibility so the future

can be secured for everybody in Aer Lingus. That

is our position.

run a sweet shop.

with that?

were kind enough to point out that I was not in

the House yesterday when the Labour Party

leader asked the Taoiseach about his new found

commitment to socialism. Ironically, I was abroad

for several days on political work to advance the

cause of socialism.

Government jet?

Comhairle, how perplexed I was when I returned

to find my wardrobe almost empty. The

Taoiseach had been busy robbing my

clothes. Up to recently the Progressive

Democrats did not have a stitch

left due to the same Taoiseach but we never

expected him to take a walk on the left side of

the street.

socialists left in Irish politics". Immediately,

Toma´s O´ Criomhthai´n came to mind, as he

lamented the last of the Blasket Islanders: "Ni´

bheidh a´ r leithe´ idi´ ari´s ann". I then thought:

"Good, Taoiseach. There are two of us in it and

we will go down together."

Sadly, I had to take a reality check. If this conversion

was genuine we would have to go back

2,000 years to find another as rapid and as radical.

Saul's embrace of Christianity on the road to

Damascus stood the test of time but the

Taoiseach's embrace of socialism on the banks of

the Tolka hardly will.

I was not impressed with the Taoiseach's

answers yesterday so I will set him a test on three

brief points to check if he is a socialist. On public

ownership, the Taoiseach stated——

a positive or a negative socialist? He is a socialist

of the negative kind.

answers in the positive. Public ownership is

crucial for socialists and the Taoiseach stated that

he likes the idea that the Phoenix Park and the

Botanic Gardens are publicly owned. As has been

stated, however, he gave our telecommunications

industry to venture capitalists to play around

with. Will the Taoiseach answer the question to

which he failed to reply just now? The Government

is split on Aer Lingus and the Minister for

Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy

McDowell, wants it to be in private hands. Will

the Taoiseach——

intervene but the Deputy's time is concluded.

socialists never support imperialist

invasions and certainly those of the type launched

by the US military which is wading in blood

through Falluja. The Taoiseach helped the US

military to get there. Will he now denounce that

atrocity and condemn the murder of an innocent

Iraqi as we this morning condemned those

obscurantists who murder innocent hostages?

On equality, the Taoiseach stated that he is

happy that the children in Rutland Street school

are given breakfast there. Why should they be

obliged to depend on the school for their breakfast?

It is because he has presided over one of the

most unequal regimes in the western world which

has given huge concessions to big business while

poverty remains in our State.

The Taoiseach has three minutes in which to

reply. I suggest that he devote one minute to each

of the three tests and I will judge his replies at

the end.

subscribe to the same kind of politics or ideology

as Deputy Joe Higgins.

"D" grade already.

be closer to those of Deputy Michael D. Higgins.

I have watched and listened to Deputy Joe

Higgins with interest for three decades but I have

never heard him say anything positive. He displays

what I believe to be a far left or "commie"

resistance to everything. He does so in the hope

that some day the world will discover oil wells off

our coast which will fall into the ownership of the

State, thereby allowing us to run a great market

economy with the State at its centre. That utopia

does not exist.

What I said yesterday when the Deputy was

not present is that——

yesterday. He should just answer the questions I

have put to him now.

political ideology is the desire to spread the

wealth more evenly. That means that people must

be encouraged to create the wealth. When this is

done, they are taxed and the money collected, is

used to resource them.

the Taoiseach to continue, without interruption.

wealth creation and, as a result, he favours high

unemployment, high expenditure and high borrowing.

Any of the tests the Deputy would set me

fail on the grounds that he does not believe in

them. That is the issue. What we do is create the

wealth, thereby allowing ourselves to employ

100,000 people in the health services to care for

others, tens of thousands of teachers, many community

care professionals and resource and home

liaison teachers and teachers to look after the

disadvantaged in our schools. That is what our

brand of socialism allows us to do. The Deputy's

brand of socialism has changed so much in recent

years. As he is aware, one of the reasons for the

rise in oil prices is because his friends in Russia

have decided that the market economy can afford

$50 a barrel.

and the Taoiseach gave them away.

doctor.

Deputy Joe Higgins's policies. I would be

delighted to discuss the matter with him on the

Blaskets or elsewhere whenever he likes.

County Mayo——

allow Deputy Joe Higgins to continue, without

interruption.

man——

order.

obliged——

obliged to ask the Deputy to leave the House if

he does not resume his seat. These are Leaders'

Questions. The Deputy is not permitted to speak.

I call Deputy Joe Higgins.

been obliged to——

ask the Taoiseach to withdraw the remark he

made about the Deputy.

going to die because——

order. He must resume his seat. He cannot raise

that matter at this time.

money from the GMS.

legal eagle friends? They are not poor, are they?

to a pupil who is going in to do an examination

is not to spend the entire time on one question.

Leaders' Questions the Taoiseach must focus on

one question and not on three.

sack a teacher.

into parts (a), (b) and (c). The Taoiseach, not

being able to answer parts (a) or (b), spent all of

his time trying to answer (c). On that alone, he

has flunked the test. He has also flunked his history

test by putting my type of socialism in the

same gallery as that of the Russian Stalinists. I do

not have time — unless the Ceann Comhairle will

provide it — to educate the Taoiseach about that

matter. He referred to my friends in Russia.

longer, they joined the WTO.

the Stalinists. Trotsky and other fine socialists

were killed because they stood for democratic

socialism.

exhausted.

has spread the wealth around. That is a curious

to big business in corporation tax cuts,

allowed tax exiles to get away with murder while

ordinary people are obliged to pay through the

nose and allowed stud farm owners and the rest

to operate tax free while ordinary people are

obliged to pay out massively through stealth taxation

and in other ways. The Taoiseach should do

the honest thing and withdraw the ludicrous

claims he made at the weekend. Let us return to

normal. Socialism is not a flag of convenience to

be used after one's party has been battered in the

local and European elections in order to pretend

that one is a friend of working people.

has thrown thousands of Aer Lingus

workers to the multinational wolves, on stock

exchanges around the world. Yesterday, the

Government had gardai´ pushing the decent

people of Rossport around the place at the behest

of the Shell Oil corporation.

Taoiseach has facilitated the powerful and the

very wealthy. Therefore it is no surprise that

him. What is shocking is that the Taoiseach still

apparently does not see that a Minister for Finance

taking large amounts of cash from businessmen

is by any objective yardstick a massive

conflict of interest. The Taoiseach minimises the

amount of money, but in 1993 the average industrial

times that amount, by any ordinary worker's standard,

would be colossal. By coincidence, two

years after that I bought a semi-detached home

am 65. At no stage should the Taoiseach have

brought his personal life or difficulties into this

issue. It is not relevant.

Again last night, deliberately, he cast RTE's

Brian Dobson in the role of agony aunt in order

to divert attention from the critical issues which

he is refusing to answer. The Taoiseach's personal

circumstances are irrelevant because he said, last

night, that he had already got a bank loan to pay

off pressing bills, that they were taken care of.

Presumably he had a schedule of repayments to

the bank. He then used what he says were personal

loans to pay off the bank loan. Can he

explain that conundrum to the House?

When the Taoiseach was in the Da´ il in 1997

setting up tribunals on payments to politicians, it

beggars belief that the alarm bells that should

have been going off in his head were not so deafening

as——

concluded.

failure of political judgment. It further beggars

belief that he could not give it back. Did the

Taoiseach ever hear of a bank draft? This morning

it took me two minutes to draft the letter the

Taoiseach could send with it:

Ah Jaysus lads, you'll have me in huge trouble

are improved and I'll have 50 reporters

traipsing after me for the rest of my life if this

comes out. Bertie.

It was as simple as that. Perhaps he might have

said: "P.S. Tell Paddy the plasterer to steer clear

of Callely's house. He is in enough trouble with

the painter already."

A senior Minister gets substantial amounts of

money from wealthy people. Half of them are

subsequently lifted into influential positions on

prestigious State bodies. What would any objective

assessment of that be in any jurisdiction?

That was nauseous patronage and cronyism.

Incredibly, the Taoiseach blocked it out last

night: the appointments were not because they

gave him money but because they were his

friends. That is just as bad. Can he not understand

that appointing cronies to State boards

because they are friends is the most despicable

abuse of the State and of public bodies?

concluded. He must give way to the Taoiseach.

Deputy Callely. A businessman gave his house a

slap of paint.

please give way to the Taoiseach.

show him the door, while he walked away with

the whole house. By those standards, should the

Taoiseach not go after the former Minister of

State, Deputy Callely?

loans with interest, not from businessmen but

friends. My friends have been described as businessmen

but the impression given that they are

captains of industry is far from the truth. They

are people who assisted me at a particular time

because they knew the circumstances. I accepted

that only on the basis these were loans with

interest. That is the position.

Every person appointed to a State board

whether by myself or my colleagues is someone

we believe is qualified for such an appointment.

They are appointments based on merit taking

into account the particular combination of skills,

qualifications, background and life experience

that each person has. Over a long political career

I know a great many people who have been

appointed to key boards. I knew these people.

They had relevant skills and experience. Three of

the five had served on State boards long before

they gave me any loan. The other two could be

considered under any fair examination to be outstanding

people who served the State well on

these boards. I do not accept the position

outlined.

Deputy Joe Higgins can make the point that all

of this is a bit of fun. I do not see it as a bit of

fun but as a serious issue. As regards paying them

back and how, he could be right in saying that I

should have paid them back. Perhaps I should

have just paid them back and not worried how it

would be interpreted, although I had taken the

initiative of giving documentation to the tribunals.

I should have been able to say that I had

paid them back over several years. I did not do it

that way because I thought that would be seen as

just doing it at that particular time. I followed the

advice I got to the effect that these matters could

not come out, and that I should keep the interest

and the paperwork up to date.

Deputy Rabbitte asked me earlier whether

there was documentation on the circumstances of

these loans from the individuals concerned. There

is comprehensive documentation and it is with

the tribunal as well. On the issue of the Deutsche

Bank and the forgery, the tribunals, I believe,

have finished with that matter. I mention it

because again, it was a sinister act to try to set

me up by suggesting I had extensive accounts. I

am not making a point about it, however it shows

the things one has to try and deal with. That is

why I dealt with the tribunals so comprehensively.

but sometimes one has to resort to ridicule to

show the untenable position the Taoiseach is

holding onto with his explanations. The

Taoiseach is not the only person who has to offer

an explanation to the House. In the face of

patronage, cronyism and double standards we

have the Trappist-like silence from the Ta´ naiste

and leader of the Progressive Democrats. In a

previous life in Opposition, one can only imagine

the fulminations that would rain down from on

high on the Taoiseach's head from Deputy

McDowell as regards these issues. To say he

would become beetroot red is really only a pallid

description of the shade of crimson verging on

purple which would describe the glow irradiating

from the indignant persona of Deputy

McDowell.

concluded.

he is sitting neatly beside the Taoiseach

today. Admittedly, his demeanour is rather tombstone

like, without the moonlight even. However,

since his appointment two weeks ago, Deputy

McDowell is trying to work hard to have us

believe he has no previous history in Government,

that he has not been in Government for ten

years, and that he has no responsibility for the

billions of euro in stamp duty and the rest. He

wants us to believe he is a political newborn,

dropped by a stork, perhaps, into a basket outside

Government Buildings two weeks ago, with

Deputy O'Donnell playing along as the besotted

nurse fetchingly referring to him as Michael, if

one does not mind. That is somewhat different

from the name she was spitting out two months

ago from behind clenched teeth, when Michael

was trying to take the PD rattler from Mary.

What has the Ta´ naiste said to the Taoiseach

about this and will he make a statement?

The image which Fianna Fa´ il has carefully cultivated

annum, is that of an ordinary, struggling man like

[Mr. J. Higgins.]

the rest of the ordinary people out there. This

image has taken a fierce battering. Ordinary

people do not have wealthy friends to do a whip

around and the myth that Fianna Fa´ il is somehow

the ordinary working person's party will hopefully

end with this episode, where rich people

come to the assistance of senior politicians.

these people are friends. If the Deputy wants to

categorise people who are friends, that is his

entitlement, but it is not an offence to get loans

from friends at times. I did that one time in my

55 years on this earth. If in hindsight that was not

the wisest thing to do, so be it, but I think there

are few of us in this House who have not benefited

from friendship at times, particularly in

times of difficulty. I have broken no laws and

have violated no ethical codes. I have co-operated

fully with tribunals that are there to make findings

of fact. Other circumstances are used to put

out half-truths, exaggerations and claims. I made

it very clear what I did and did not do, and I did

so many years ago under the confidentiality of

tribunals to show that I had nothing to do with

any of the issues that I was accused of doing.

People are well aware of what has been stated

about me over a number of years. I would not

wish that people in this House would have to go

through the same process I have had to go

through in the past eight or nine years to prove

that I had no hand, act or part in any of the

serious allegations that have been pressed against

me, but time will see that right.